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Rihanna-Chris Brown - Don't blame the victim but who IS the victim?

The Reclusive Leftist does not publish my comments, or at least the last 5 or 6 have been deleted without coming out of moderation. Who knows why - RL doesn't respond to my questions. UPDATE: RL did publish my comment finally - don't know what happened previously to the other five comments which were deleted in moderation but feeling silenced was a good thing to motivate me to expand the post below. I guess I am not banned over there. Still, I am now motivated to write more here.

The thing she and other feminists are writing about is of interest to me and that is the Rihanna-Chris Brown case. I want feminists to read my comments to them, so I will publish it here.

If you read RL post's comments, there are women who complain that there is no excuse, don't blame the childhood abuse, don't blame the mother who stayed or the father/abuser, don't blame Rihanna, etc etc.

This is my unpublished comment to all those women.

The reason family history is important is because abuse fills children with a rage they carry their life long. It hard wires people. The rage is about being unfairly treated and being powerless and helpless to stop the abuse. Shame, humiliation, rage and yet "love" and wanting to be loved, needing to be valued by the abuser who has the power of life and death over a child. Learning hopelessness because you can never please the abuser enough, you are never good enough.

People carry that rage they must bury to survive and act on that rage in self destructive ways all their life long because it is subconscious and primitive. If you haven’t experienced it you don’t/can’t understand.

And please don't kid yourself - a man who beats his wife will abuse his children so these kids got a lot more grief than just "watching" abuse. I bet Brown was beaten - repeatedly. Probably Rihanna was also abused. But they were convinced it was appropriate discipline, was for their "own good" and they "deserved it" bla bla bla.

The woman also must have a lot of violence in her family background. She understands it, calls it love. Needs the passion like a junkie. They are both victims and neither is appropriate. They are dancers in a waltz of their own choosing. I learned this after working with BW for many years. There is no victim/abuser split - they are both active participants in the dance. The woman who returns after a serious battery is a dancer, a player. The woman with children who returns after two batteries is a child abuser.

Why should we label her thus? To protect the next generation from both of them.

The victims are the children and animals who live with them. In the case of celebrities, the victims are those who follow their example. The real abusers are the family members who put these children into the abusive patterns they will struggle with for ever.

Now I did not have the space at RL to say that yes, there comes a time where we are accountable for our own choices but it is important to understand that in domestic violence cases we are fighting with impulses that are part of our personality at the elementary level -- instinct/ reaction - add stress to that and individuals will need outside intervention to gain control. They will self-medicate without the help of experts in the abuse dynamic.Now is the time for the state to order that help FOR BOTH PARTIES.

None of this applies to the situation where one party wants to escape with or without children and is being prevented or stalked by an abuser. Or where a woman realizes the abuser is dangerous and is making plans to escape. That is the situation where women are killed. Unfortunately, it often takes many years of the dance before a non abuser really can sustain leaving. And it should then be done with help from BW Shelters and family if they support her because it is a dangerous thing to do. Often the danger is underestimated by a woman and the legal system. Sometimes the legal system, and always the family court system actually supports the abuser and his right to (abuse) the children. This is all true and why women with children are trapped in DV situations.

The family history is not only important to understand but the family should be held criminally accountable and of course they never are. Rape a child outside the family you might go to jail; rape your daughter, you will be reunited with your victim by child protection services. Listen to the families explain, deny, blame, minimize, and condone. This is how both these children were conditioned and exploited.

The abuse dynamic is an addiction to dominance submission acted out between parent and child with spankings followed by declarations of love and by extreme forms of discipline resulting in lifelong rage;like drug addition, alcohol addiction, any addiction. There are many relapses. Eventually, you can free yourself somewhat but never totally because the rage never goes away.

Prevention of rape and femicide and battery is all about ending child abuse. This is the root of the problem and the root of the answer.

Feminist need to get smart about this and stop doing our own versions of denial. Prevention only works when it is based on hard understandings of the roots of the dysfunction. First, women should be taught that it is never acceptable to breed with an abuser. That in itself is a form of child abuse. If he becomes abusive during the pregnancy or afterward, the children must to be removed from his orbit. Incidents must be reported, a record established. We need to recognize that women who are beat as children will beat their own children or fail to protect and hold them accountable as well as male abusers.

I am advocating for Children’s Villages, not foster homes. Children’s Villages where no child is abused and adult professionals are employed in three shifts to form families in units. Places where parents counseling and treatment can be monitored.

Oh, too radical you say. Check on the web to see how many pedophiles live in your neighborhood. Multiply that by four for domestic abuse. Either we start to apply radical solutions or we will lose.


Blogger Val said...

Excellent post GC - your phrasing esp about the victims being "the children & animals who live w/them" made the hair on the back of my neck stand up...
When I think about how narrow my own escape was sometimes, my stomach is clenched in nausea.
I'm not even going to comment over at RL, it's too close to home for me - even though I wanted to throw out the clever quip about having my own strap-on ;-)

11:09 AM, March 07, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...

Hurray for your escape!!! I am SO happy for you and I thank you.

12:04 PM, March 07, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...

and I hope things are going smoothly with all those little glitches. You are an admirable woman!

12:05 PM, March 07, 2009  
Blogger Cyn said...

Green, I couldn't agree with you more. In my line of work, I see many women who put up with the beatings, verbal and physical, because they think they deserve it. We often recommend the book "Men who hate women and the women who love them".

With regard to RL, do you think your comments were purposefully deleted? If so, why would Violet do such a thing?

I have come to respect you and Violet as important voices with much to say. It bothers me to think she may have censored your comments.

5:58 PM, March 07, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...

Double Jointed Fingers

I am honored and relieved to see you agree. I respect your blog so much.

I haven't been over to see if Violet finally published this or not. Whatever. She is still a feminist voice we can both respect and there are too few of them to ignore any of them. So I am still very happy to read her. Actually she did me a favor. I tend to post my feelings/analysis on other people's blogs and just run news from other people here. Better if I reveal myself more here. It is more interesting.

I love you for being so kind to me DJF.

6:16 PM, March 07, 2009  
Blogger Cyn said...

Green, somehow we are connected. I don't know how or why, but maybe it will be revealed to us at some later date.

You are the catalyst that will allow me to grow. I just know that. And I hope that I am the catalyst that allows you to be you.

Bless us both.

7:13 PM, March 07, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...

Exactly DJF. Perfectly said. Bless us and Val too!

5:22 AM, March 08, 2009  
Blogger Monica Cassani said...

very nice..I'm a radical mental health advocate and see trauma and abuse being basically the root of all so called "mental illness."

The only real mental illness is PTSD and people with even the most radical forms of "mental illness" have recovered when they've had the right sorts of supports without drugs...

our society is at it's roots abusive...we abuse each other and the planet...

domestic violence has the same roots as all sorts of other sources of mental distress...

I like the way you look at this!

I'm sorry...this is my first comment and I've not read the rest of your blog...

found you through Val...I hope I have been appropriate to your blog culture here...

I usually wait to understand what is going on a bit before commenting, but got the impulse to speak...

3:57 PM, March 09, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...


Welcome! Please do not worry about being appropriate. There is no culture here. Just us.

4:47 PM, March 09, 2009  
Blogger Rj said...

Hey, who are you? I just realize you commented on my American Humane post...I've browsed around your site a have no about page...

2:16 PM, April 01, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...

Randi James of the great blog

If you have read Phyllis Chesler's Mother's on Trial, I was the director of Mil WI Woman Against Rape wherein we first discovered the family court situation in the 1980's and tried to do something about it. Now i am just another old poor woman with cats probably going to lose my home soon. Join the crowd as they say.

2:38 PM, April 01, 2009  
Blogger Rj said...

Sadly, I haven't done a lot of reading. I can name only a handful of books that I have read from cover to cover...not because they weren't good, but because I had been drowning in my life..*sigh*

1980s? It pains me to hear that because sometimes, I think I'm saying something original (not really) but then I go and do my research, and this same stuff has been said, known for the past 20 years. (so that's why I've more recently been doing copy and paste, copy n paste) It makes me feel like there has been little progress.

Poor old woman with cats? LOL.

2:54 PM, April 03, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...

HEY! You are doing what needs to be done -- we did workshops tried to organize but made no inroads -- the system is too patriarchal and the deck is stacked - the only ones who care are those suffering and they are too shattered not to be self destructive.

The first step is to be fair and decide exactly what is child abuse in the custody setting -- to get parents to agree to what it is before they have children would be prevention. I have things to say about the way women use children in custody disputes just as i used to say a lot about males. You cannot just get religion during the divorce. There is parental alienation and I have seen it in my own clients. There is also abuse. So I believe the "Movement" needs consensus on this point. I wrote a big deal on children villages on the blog where the dog killers story was -- i believe i left the link on your blog.

I think we have to be willing and able to put the children in a safe place while the parents get it together or the state sorts it out -- that also is prevention.

Then there is a lot to say -- too much for here.

But in the hardcover notes to Mothers On Trial page 600, chp 20 note 27 are WI WAR's recommendations.

All the notes should be read.

BTW, Phyllis Chesler will be on Free US Now Blog talk radio Monday night.

You should find the website before then and click the reminder button -- the time below is eastern standard time.

Free ME Now Radio

Monday Night soROARity
Our Guest Dr. Phyllis Chesler

"On The Truth About Violence Against Women "

Dr. Chesler has appeared on The Today Show, The O'Reilly Factor, Oprah, Nightline, CSPAN, 700 Club, CNN, Court TV, CSPAN, The Dennis Prager Show, Donahue, Geraldo, The History Channel, Israel National Radio, Al-Hurrah, The MacNeil-Lehrer Report, MSNBC, NPR, and Washington Journal and on network and local radio and TV programs all over North America and Europe. For three years, she was a regular contributor to NPR's program At the Opera. In the last few years, she has been interviewed hundreds of times in the media about anti-Semitism, jihadic terrorism and Islamic gender and religious apartheid and has delivered many lectures on these subjects.

And here is the Free Me Now Blog

3:20 PM, April 03, 2009  
Blogger Rj said...

Thanks for the links. I am familiar with FreeUsNow as I have recently participated....Second, you may know already that parental alienation is where we part heads, as I cannot support that term with the history behind it...a history that continues into the present where is it almost exclusively used against women.

How do we get parents to agree before they are parents? Like a prenuptial child plan? Would something like that be enforceable after the split if a judge and others think they know what's best for you and your children, and can decide whatever they like?

I don't know any women who use their children in custody disputes as the only women I know are those who were abused. The women who aren't even in the justice system, that I know, that APPEAR to be using their children in a dispute, are those that have been raising their children, unassisted, and have no time for extra drama.

I acknowledge that maternal deprivation is yet another form of abuse inflicted upon women who have been primary caregivers, and upon divorce, the father attempts to teach the kids to abuse the mother, just as he did.

If you believe in "parental alienation" as the "movement" it has become, my problem is it reminds me of the book 1984--where people's thoughts are controls, doublespeak, Big Brother is watching. When does it all end?

I did read your piece on the villages and while I understand YOUR good intentions, I didn't like the idea of having a third party raise children--claiming to know how to do a better job. I just can't agree with that in my heart. We become a nation of Children of the State. Mother as incubator...LOL. I'm not for more government regulation of families--they've already fucked up the economy (excuse me)!!!

I'll read up on everything you've mentioned.


3:44 PM, April 03, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...


If you see this, bring here and leave the link to that blog -- I forgot the name and I want to go there again because the writer was interesting -- but as usual I lost the name of the blog

3:45 PM, April 03, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...


I used to feel the way you do -- then I became an attorney and did divorces -- my clients taught their children to hate their fathers -- not all but enough to shock me.

Not because the men were abusers but because the men rejected the mothers.

You do not see this because you are an advocate. I have moved to being the child's advocate because otherwise we will never break the cycle of abuse.

The women marry these men and have children with them. Why must a child be stuck with their bad choices all its' life? I had women go right out and find another abuser within months.

Now I also had righteous women who were stalked and harassed and those cases went on forever and I fought for those women. But I am no longer a true believer. If a woman is abused as a child she grows just as twisted as the males do. Only it shows in different more passive aggressive ways. The children are victims of both of them.

Examples of this are; Women who make children, instead of adults, their friends and confidants, put them in the middle and keep them tied to them self instead of teaching them Independence. Women who are afraid to let the child enjoy the father. Women who obstruct visitation to force complience or just for spite - women who want child support at the cost of the relationship with the father. ADULT SEX VICTIMS WHO LEAVE THEIR CHILD ALONE WITH THE GRANDFATHER WHO MOLESTED THEM.

This all exists as does abuse by males of both boys and girls and abuse ignored by a prejudiced system.

But until you face the problem fairly and come up with solutions that protect the children first, there will be no progress. It will be just like family court with the two parents fighting - the child in the middle and a third party making the decision.
Yes, the court ordered parenting contract which in WI is part of the custody determination should be required BEFORE people have children as should child development and parent classes. The divorce is pretty late.

4:04 PM, April 03, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...



4:25 PM, April 03, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...


there are having a conference and an Irene Weiser is one of the speakers and under her name it says:

the family court crises and what we can do about it

4:37 PM, April 03, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...

also Randi you know i have linked to you for a long time but you are under -f- on favorite blogs --for family court

because I think as long as the children are not the priority women need to equalize the family court wars

9:10 AM, April 04, 2009  
Blogger Rj said...

Okay, I'm a little lost with all the comments. Let's see if I can break it down (for me LOL).

1. If you see this, bring here and leave the link to that blog -- I forgot the name and I want to go there again because the writer was interesting -- but as usual I lost the name of the blog

What were you talking about?

2. my clients taught their children to hate their fathers

What did they do? And you say just because the fathers rejected them...Does this mean there was no history of abuse, period?

Hey, I have a question. Do you think infidelity and other martial indiscretions are "abuse."? For example--a partner that is always absent because he/she works excessively, has another secret family, spend all free time with friends?

I just question how people could teach someone to hate without reason. I"m not saying that the reason is justified, just an explanation.

3. Why must a child be stuck with their bad choices all its' life?

That's why I advocate for children to be able to make informed decisions. I don't see that happening. I see one side talking about "children's rights" under the guise of the right to be in control.

4. I had women go right out and find another abuser within months.

So do you think that the children should be taken away, and given to a third party (if no "father" is available)? Then how do we support women when they are still IN these relationships?

5. So can I speculate that you do not believe that women who were abused as children, should not go on to have children of their own? I can understand this, BUT, in the current power differential under this patriarchy, women are abused in so many different ways. How do women get out of this when there is so much opposition?

6. women who want child support at the cost of the relationship with the father.

What does this look like? You know, I was a "target (LOL) on the Feminist Critics website one time and my eyes were opened to something one of the men said that may possible answer what I see: He said, he was dealing with White women of the middle class, and that I may be looking at poor women, or women of color, and the situations may be totally different.

I bring this up because I dont know any women who use child support to gain anything. Most women either aren't getting child support, they get an extraordinarily low amount ordered, or the father just pays whatever he feels. Thus, the woman pays all the expenses of the child, and the father just comes in when he feels like it, causing more grief than anything else. This is disturbing.

You know the term: I can do bad all by myself?

What purpose does it serve to extend yourself (and I say yourself, not the child, for a reason) for the "said" benefit of the child, when it is taxing the available resources that you have? Making you have less in the end..just for the sake of "parenting."

7. You're right, the divorce IS late. That's why when I speak of being against joint custody/shared parenting, I ask--what was the parental relationship like BEFORE the marriage ended? Why can't the child exist in whatever roles operated under normal, functional conditions.


I'm really starting to feel like women should only utilize sperm banks...unless that contract you specified could really take place.


8. Haven't been on reclusive leftist

9. I have no clue who links to me. When did you even find my blog? LOL

12:38 PM, April 04, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...

OK here goes

1.Your Humane society post -- didn't I leave a link to the killed dog/children's village comments blog because i forgot the name of that blog and want to go back.

2. No I think abuse has a specific definition legally battery - rape -- people cheating being ahs - not getting along -- that is rotten and unethical but normal growing and changing business. I want to say grow up - stop trying to control a partner -- get out. If they stop you from leaving by stalking, harassment (threats) battery, rape etc - that is abuse ---hitting a child is abuse -- more thing are abuse of a child and animals than are of adults because the children and animals cannot leave and are Dependant. But women are not children.They need to leave and get help being self sufficient from shelters.

The women I knew told their children; your father did not want you he wanted me to murder you by abortion, he doesn't want to see you he hurts Mommy; Mommy is so sad(and crying) because daddy doesn't love mommy. When the kid got home from visits they would be cross examined in various ways for hours and made to reassure mom that she was still no one. Some women hit their children; some women left them with child molesters. I cannot list everything -- I was shocked -- i saw it over and over -- everything we said never happens DOES happen. The problem is that when there is real abuse the court system does not believe it because they were all lawyers once and everyone had these rotten mother clients. So real abuse victims are punished by those who use and abuse the system.

3 I agree with you there - but i am for removing control to third parties. Children turn into con artists when given decision making power over their parents -- they threaten and bully and learn they are the source of child support -- they play each parent against the other -- children need to be removed from high conflict divorce situations and cared for as children needing the freedom from stress in order to develop to self sufficiency.

4. I don't support women in these relationships -- I support women who want help to leave these relationships especially by insisting that help be there economically. But poverty is no excuse - Prevention is teaching women not to breed until they are self sufficient and condemning breeding without self sufficiency. ALL other ways are patriarchal BS-- Illusion _lies. Women must stop reinforcing this lalaland view of motherhood. Real mothers protect their children and that means being able to support them. But as you know I would have children's villages because the young are stupid and will have babies they cannot support and therefore be forced to stay in abusive situations. I will rescue the children from those parents.

Support women who want to stay??? If they have children,I call them enablers - parents who fail to protect and treat them the way I treat abusers. Classes, therapy for those who want to change - prison for those who do not or who are repeat offenders or who participate in child abuse.

5. It depends on the woman and how self aware she is - what she has done to heal - how she treats animals -- some survivors are good moms -- most live out the cycle again but not all involve their children. Not one rule here.

6. Child Support -- ooh child support. I want to take the child out of support. I do not want children to be a source of income for either party. This is the patriarchal model which as you write is the biggest lie ever said out loud.

Some women do want placement for child support but it is deeper than that -- some women who cannot afford a child, get pregnant and go after child support to justify living at home with the grandparents "because they are forced to do it" But there is the child as an external justification.

God, my hardest case was getting back pay child support from a disabled veteran. What was his disability? He was a pedophile. I cannot believe how long women stay with these puds but once you try to get child support it becomes somewhat understandable. We need parenting agreements before or during pregnancy which include statements of self sufficiency. If he is a bad father how are you going to support this child?

7. Sometimes the pre divorce arrangement was sick or it may be no longer viable. I think that both parents need to want any child brought into the world. I do not believe a woman has the right to bring life into the world against the wishes of the father. And having said that, I then do opt for 50/50 parenting the emphasis being on opportunities for the child. Divorce means a reduced standard of living.They say there is a marriage tax bla bla. No one is more economically disadvantaged than the single woman trying to make it on one income. a woman's income.

I do not believe in motherhood as a way of earning a living because it is a bad living and especially with the children in school.

When I like things people say in comments I click on their names and find their blogs -- that is how I think I found you.

2:51 PM, April 04, 2009  
Blogger Greenconsciousness said...

and then there were the girlfriend wars and how daddy hurt money and that woman hurt mommy ---WHAT BUSINESS IS THIS OF THE CHILDREN???? WHY DO THEY HAVE TO GET IN THE MIDDLE?

3:00 PM, April 04, 2009  

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