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Fascist is the correct term to describe the muslim relgion
Islam is a fascist religion. Christians who kill doctors at abortion clinics do not have the power of the state to enforce SUBMISSION to their religious beliefs. In a Muslim country the state would blow up the clinic and hang the doctors. Submission to their religion is the main belief of Muslims. Sharia is forced submission to the state religion. That is why Islam is a fascist religion.
Islam is a fascist religion because in every Muslim majority country STATE FORCE is used to enforce the religion's laws. Dissent is punishable by torture and death. Ask what happens to Muslims who convert to another religion. Muslims consider everyone who does not believe an infidel. Look up the definition of the word infidel.
Don't ignored the position of women in the fascist Muslim slave states. Yes, It is fascist to enforce submission by use of:
honor killings of women,
female slavery,
forced prayers which include groveling in the dirt and broadcasting them over loudspeakers into residential neighborhoods in Michigan,
gender apartheid,
religious apartheid,
"respect" for religious leaders, which includes hanging a 16 year old girl for "talking back",
state control of media,
and the lack of any secular rights, even the right to dress as you please.
Muslim spokesMEN can babble about pie in the sky religion and how people are ignorant because they don't study the Koran, but all we really need to know is how their religion is practiced in the real world.
Islam is a fascist religion because in every Muslim majority country STATE FORCE is used to enforce the religion's laws. Dissent is punishable by torture and death. Ask what happens to Muslims who convert to another religion. Muslims consider everyone who does not believe an infidel. Look up the definition of the word infidel.
Don't ignored the position of women in the fascist Muslim slave states. Yes, It is fascist to enforce submission by use of:
honor killings of women,
female slavery,
forced prayers which include groveling in the dirt and broadcasting them over loudspeakers into residential neighborhoods in Michigan,
gender apartheid,
religious apartheid,
"respect" for religious leaders, which includes hanging a 16 year old girl for "talking back",
state control of media,
and the lack of any secular rights, even the right to dress as you please.
Muslim spokesMEN can babble about pie in the sky religion and how people are ignorant because they don't study the Koran, but all we really need to know is how their religion is practiced in the real world.
posted by Greenconsciousness
at 10:53 PM - Link
23 Comments:
I would advance that it's not the religion itself that is the cause of all your complaints, just as Christianity itself is not the cause of all the complaints against it. Rather, it is a mentality of social reaction which in some circles has managed to cultivate a symbiotic relationship with religion. The enemy is not the religion itself but this mentality of social reaction.
I find that a pretty misinformed comment. The presentation of Islam/the Muslim world we get via the news suggests those ideas but I'm sure it's not the reality for many people of Muslim faith. Furthermore, even those Muslims who hold those views may not have held them twenty years ago - Islam is not inherently 'fascist' although some practitioners are practicing an increasingly extreme form of that religion.
It's not okay to judge an entire group according to the actions of a number of people within that group who may act anti-socially/inhumanely/inappropriately - whether the group is labelled by religion, race, gender etc.
Actually, I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to this post because to label all muslims fascist is just so patently ridiculous ...
You on the other hand are not ignorant but rather a sexist oppressor. For anyone who thinks the above words are at all persuasive I urge you to go to the website of Women Against Fundamentalism. The link is under the picture of the woman in a burka on the green column to your right. The arguments above are used by the fascists in the hope that they will influence those who do not actually have to live with Muslims. WAF does live with them, takes pictures from under those burkas and has a list of women tortured and killed by the Mullahs. They will tell you what happened to the 200 women who dared to protest their conditions in Tehran and the children of Muslim men. U.S. women need to stop nodding and smiling at the monsters (whether Muslim , college professor, WPR radio show host or Democrat) who urge us to love our oppressors and the men who will kill us if they get the chance. Read "The Death of Feminism" by Phyllis Chesler. Everywhere the Muslim faith is in the majority, everyone who does not conform is persecuted. There is no freedom of speech in Muslim countries, no open dissent from religious law.
Note the anonymous commenter above, to improve his argument, stated that I am labeling ALL Muslims as fascist. But it is clear that I am talking about the religion not individuals trapped in it.
I am challenging the false assertion that terrorism is practiced by a few misguided Muslims but the religion is not inherently terrorist. I am saying the religion, which combines state power with religion through Sharia, creating a theocracy is a fascist religion.
Even though there were a handful of Germans who resisted, it was still fair to call Germany a Nazi country during WWII. Muslim states who still seek to eliminate the Jews, publish anti-Semitic crap in their official newspapers, teach it in their schools, practice religious apartheid and fund terrorism, stood with the Nazis in WWII, provided sanctuary for them afterward and are still Nazis. For examples of Islamic fascism skip two posts down and read the report from Women Against Fundamentalism on Islamic fascism in Bangladesh.
Everywhere the Muslim faith is in the majority, everyone who does not conform is persecuted. There is no freedom of speech in Muslim countries, no open dissent from religious law.
What about contemporary Turkey and Morocco? What about al-Andalus (Islamic Iberia)?
the anonymous commenter above, to improve his argument, stated that I am labeling ALL Muslims as fascist. But it is clear that I am talking about the religion not individuals trapped in it.
This is a qualification you should have included in your original post, when you made blanket generalizations like `Submission to their religion is the main belief of Muslims' and `Muslims consider everyone who does not believe an infidel'. Furthermore, seeing as how many devout people identify heavily with their religion, you are labelling Muslims per se as fascists when you label their religion fascist.
http://www.answers.com/topic/islam
Is·lam (ĭs-läm', ĭz-, ĭs'läm', ĭz'-)
n.
A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.
The people or nations that practice Islam; the Muslim world.
The civilization developed by the Muslim world.
[Arabic ’islām, submission, from ’aslama, to surrender, resign oneself, from Syriac ’ašlem, to make peace, surrender, derived stem of šlem, to be complete.]
Islam
Major world religion founded by Muhammad in Arabia in the early 7th century AD. The Arabic word islam means “submission”-specifically, submission to the will of the one God, called Allah in Arabic. Islam is a strictly monotheistic religion, and its adherents, called Muslims, regard the Prophet Muhammad as the last and most perfect of God's messengers, who include Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and others. The sacred scripture of Islam is the Qur'an, which contains God's revelations to Muhammad. The sayings and deeds of the Prophet recounted in the sunna are also an important source of belief and practice in Islam. The religious obligations of all Muslims are summed up in the Five Pillars of Islam, which include belief in God and his Prophet and obligations of prayer, charity, pilgrimage, and fasting. The fundamental concept in Islam is the Shari'ah, or Law, which embraces the total way of life commanded by God.
Etymologyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
In Arabic, Islam derives from the triconsonantal root Sīn-Lām-Mīm, with a basic meaning of "to surrender". Islam is an abstract nominal derived from this root, and literally means "submission to 'The God' (Arabic:Allah)". The legislative meaning is to submit to God by singling Him out in all acts of worship, to yield obediently to Him and to free and disassociate oneself from Polytheism and its people. Other Arabic words derived from the same root include:
Salaam, meaning "peace" or "safety", also part of a common salutation, assalamu alaikum ("peace be upon you").
Muslim, an agentive noun meaning "one who submits wholeheartedly [to God]".
Salamah, meaning "safety", also used in the common farewell ma' as-salamah ("[go] with safety").
Aslam (with a short "a" vowel) also means "I submit", since the addition of a hamza to the beginning of the triliteral root, followed by the first two consonants, a short vowel, and the final consonant, is the first-person singular imperfect tense in Arabic. (For example, from Sĩn-Kãf-Nũn, the word "'askun" means "I live" [reside].)
Islamic law
Masjid al-Nabawi (Mosque of the Prophet)
Main article: Sharia
The Sharia (Arabic for "well-trodden path") is Islamic law, as shown by traditional Islamic scholarship. The Qur'an is the foremost source of Islamic jurisprudence. The second source is the sunnah of Muhammad and the early Muslim community. The sunnah is not itself a text like the Qur'an, but is extracted by analysis of the hadith (Arabic for report), which contain narrations of Muhammad's sayings, deeds, and actions. Ijma (consensus of the community of Muslims) and qiyas (analogical reasoning) are the third and fourth sources of Sharia.
Islamic law covers all aspects of life, from the broad topics of governance and foreign relations all the way down to issues of daily living. Islamic laws that were covered expressly in the Qur’an were referred to as hudud laws and include specifically the five crimes of theft, highway robbery, intoxication, adultery and falsely accusing another of adultery, each of which has a prescribed "hadd" punishment that cannot be forgone or mitigated.
The Qur'an also details laws of inheritance, marriage, restitution for injuries and murder, as well as rules for fasting, charity, and prayer. However, the prescriptions and prohibitions may be broad, so how they are applied in practice varies. Islamic scholars, the ulema, have elaborated systems of law on the basis of these broad rules, supplemented by the hadith reports of how Muhammad and his companions interpreted them.
In current times, as Islam has spread to countries such as Iran, Indonesia, Great Britain, and the United States, not all Muslims understand the Qur'an in its original Arabic. Thus, when Muslims are divided in how to handle situations, they seek the assistance of a mufti (Islamic judge) who can advise them based on Islamic Sharia and hadith.
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Amazon has the books of many Muslim women who have been tortured and had to escape their own countries because they were raped, one by a Palestinian woman who was burned alive and survived I will list them later - the point is you can make your arguments from your comfortable positions in free countries but you would not be free in any country where the Muslims are the majority. Who says so? The women who live there say so. And if you really are a feminist you owe these women a lot more than cheap politically correct slogans and allegiance to the male left line.
Read the Death of Feminism. I dare you to put your money where your mouth is. Read some real FEMINIST analysis instead of the boy's crap. Ask if your politics are good for women? How dose it free women? How does your tolerance for Islamic fascism help women?
Indonesia
http://waf.gn.apc.org/journal6p59.htm
Turkey
http://waf.gn.apc.org/j4p26.htm
Africa
http://waf.gn.apc.org/j3p7.htm
Algeria
http://waf.gn.apc.org/j4p36.htm
Lebanon
http://waf.gn.apc.org/j4p37.htm
So many enemies;so little time by Elinor Burkett (Uzbekistan)
Burned Alive: A Victim of the Law of Men (Hardcover)
by Souad, Judith Armbruster (Translator) "I am a girl..."
My Forbidden Face by Latifa (afghanistan)
Price of Honor by Jan Goodwin
(Pakistan, Iran, UAE, Kuwait, Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt)
and there is an old old book by Kate Millett called Going to Iran which is very worth revisiting if you can find a copy. In fact, she ought to read it again.
Also see, The Hidden Face of Eve, by Nawal El Saadawi (women in the Arab world)She is Egyptian, upper class, a professional woman.
Flooding your own blog with irrelevant passages from answers.com isn't an argument. And if we're not allowed to have views on something from our privileged first-world position, then logically neither are you.
You're also charging at windmills here -- activistgradgal's argument was `I'm not saying everything is wonderful in these countries or even that Islam doesn't influence the laws of the countries (or probably more importantly the non-legally regulated social practices of the population). But (as far as I can tell) they don't fit the bill of Shari'a being enforced.' To refute the claims she and I have made, you need to cite evidence that the countries we mentioned (Turkey, Morocco, Algeria, Lebanon, al-Andalus) have state legislation reflecting the more oppressive aspects of Shari'a. Arguably, you've done that with Algeria and Lebanon, though a more mainstream corroborating source would improve your case. Books about Uzebekistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc., are irrelevant to this point.
Your profile indicates that you're an attorney; you should be able to make more thoughtful, conscise arguments than this!
I'm surprised you are on the Feminist Blog list because these are ignorant statements.
Christianity and Islam are not that harmful in of themselves. It is fundamentalism and conditions that lead to fundamentalist extremism such as Sharia that make these religions harmful. The West went through a secular Enlightenment era so the Bible has secular interpretations whereas Muslim countries did not go through a secular Englightenment period so Islam is often interpreted literally often at the expense of women. Western imperialism greatly exacerbated the conditions of many countries and has to lead to more fundamentalism in these countries. Finally, I've read The Bible and The Quar'an cover to cover and agree with many who say the Quar'an is more egalitarian and peaceful than the Bible. It's the secular interpretation of the Bible that makes the difference.
So it is not religions in of themselves that cause the greatest problems. It is fundamentalist interpretations often caused by economic conditions that have caused the most problems especially for women.
So for first-worlders:
Religions = OK
Fundamentalism/Literal interpretations = BAD
Colonizing/Invading/Bombing Muslim countries = BAD
Sorry, it's Qu'ran not Quar'an. I read them 15 years ago.
nonwhite person - you belong on the "I love male theocracy" blog list - don't confuse that with feminism
Green, I'm as rad as they come and I read these texts for their feminist implications.
Christianity and Islam are very deeply patriarchal. Your post (I have not read your links although I do read WAF) is about interpretations of Islam. The practitioners and the results are deeply patriarchal. Again this are fundamentalist and literal interpretations due to social and economic conditions. My problem with your post is the implication that the religion of Islam is fascist and other religions such as Christianity are not. Can you not say what is currently being wrought by neo-con Christian fundamentalist Republicans is more fascist and harmful for the entire world than what is happening to women in Muslim countries?
In other words, bloggers in the East could very well say from their current point of view "Fascist is the correct term to describe the Christian relgion". In fact, they are being murdered by Christian fundamentalists who are hoping for the Rapture while we sit here wringing our hands at what happens to women in Muslim countries.
nonwhite person - First of all I have not said one thing about Christianity. In Christianity there can be said to be fundamentalists and moderates but that is not true of Islam and I have already said why in the original post. Getting into interpretation as the source of the problem is a trap. FEMINIST is about the position and status of women - I am not going to engage about abstract arguments about the true meaning as Mohamed laid down the law - who cares? Feminism looks at the practice - the reality of women lives - their status in the law and in society - their rights. Islam treats women as property to be disposed of when they become any inconvenience to the male. Last week in Italy an 18 year old girl was killed because she had a boyfriend and refused traditional dress. I don't care what the Koran says when that is the reality of women EVERYWHERE the Muslim religion is practiced - this is not about interpretation - this is about reality.
And this is NOT the reality for Christan women.
I am aware of the threat of Christian fundamentalism but it is not as horrific as life is for Muslim women under Sharia. Your attempt to equate the to is insulting to women. They are not morally equivalent THANKS TO THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT IN THE US.
Now I do believe unless free women in this country unite to fight the oppression of middle east women, they will suffer the fate of those women,losing their freedom as well. Everything being connected in ways that are deep, as we abandon them so shall we be abandoned. Women are a caste. If we unite in defense of the slaves, to free our slave sisters, our power will be strengthened to defend ourselves from our home grown theocracy. And i don't care one wit if I have to work with Bush to do that. Since 1972 I have wanted to strike against the middle east patriarchies. Women should be organized to use the State Dept's Office of Women's Issues to influence policy but i had to spend the whole damn war listening to so called feminists say oooo invasion is not the way.
As if we were going to persuade these Nazis to give up their power - to free their slaves.
Have you ever read Ariadne by June Rachuy Brindel? That is how we GOT the patriarchy.
I meant to type "two" not "to" up there
I am the second 'anonymous' - I think it was me who you suggested had conflated muslim individuals with the muslim religion. That wasn't what I intended to convey. I was trying to say that the Muslim religion is not fascist - even if some individuals are. Contemporary Muslims may be interpreting/enacting Islam in this way but the religion is not inherently facist. i.e. because religions are practiced differently dependent on how they are interpreted. The extreme attitudes towards women are - in many Muslim countries - a recent development after many decades of (relative) freedom.
And therefore its not ok to tar all Muslims as fascists because not all are experiencing/enacting their religion in the same way. I stand by my claim that you need to be more circumspect in your analysis. As a feminist woman I abhor the deplorable treatment of women by some Muslims but I don't believe that gives me the right to tar all Muslims around the world with the same brush.
also, I believe that my position is defendable from a feminist perspective because - for me - a central tenet is the need to respect people's right to choose their own beliefs. Like it or not, a lot of Muslim women are committed to Islam. They may want to see current practices of it changed, transformed etc to benefit the status and experiences of women but they are still committed to many theological aspects of Islam. Critique the specific aspects you don't like and support Islamic women - don't pillory a whole religion. Such an attitude reeks of cultural imperialism that Bush's 'anti-terrorism' stance is reviled for outside of the US.
"also, I believe that my position is defensible from a feminist perspective because - for me - a central tenet is the need to respect people's right to choose their own beliefs"
You must think feminism means anything you want it to - anything that fits your politics or your religion but you are wrong. -- Feminists do not respect people's choice to oppress women - we reject people's belief that they have the right to control women's bodies or force women to submit to slavery - we reject the belief that a husband can beat his wife and children - and all of this is part of the Muslim religion both in theory and in practice despite all your bs about "interpretation and your desperate attempts to find a country where that is not true.
Feminists demand equal rights for women and stand against gender apartheid. The Muslim religion is incompatible with feminism and is anti feminist. In fact it is a fascist religion.
"Like it or not, a lot of Muslim women are committed to
Islam. "
What choice do they have?
Muslims women have no choice but to practice their religion. The alternative is torture and death.. Until we built shelters in the US, people told us women liked being beaten by their husbands because, if they did not, they would leave.
Easy to ignore the fact that there was no where to go, no way to support your self and that they would lose their children to an abuser if they "abandoned" them.
Free Muslim women from any threat of force and coercion - free them from the honor killings - provide battered women shelters, give them a way to earn enough money to support self and children, create secular family courts where Muslim women have equal rights to child custody/placement.......
and then we will see how many Muslim women choose slavery.
I thought of the perfect example which will help you all understand. Not every catholic opposes abortion but the RELIGION and it's male hierarchy is oppressive to women. It is a misogynist religion. See? Now do you get it?
you are aboslutely correct. many americans don't really understand the difference between islam, christianity and judaism. even if jews and christians disagree with certain legislation, they will agree to abide under democratically created law. muslims will not. democratically created law ensures that despite people's freedom to worship, that other's individual freedoms aren't imposed on. muslims do not shar those values. in england they are beginning to adopt sharia law since muslims do not approve of an egalitarian democracy. the end result: fewer freedoms for women, gays and people who worship other religions. that is not different than in any other muslim dominated country.
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